Firstfives.org

For anyone who has installed B&G lowering springs and Bilstein Sports has there been any front or rear camber issues? If so how were they resolved? Robert

I haven't done it, but with a set of them in a box in the garage I'm interested in both replies and your opinion of them.

Just installed a set. You will definitely notice additional negative camber. It's enough to reduce the life of your tires, but depending on the price of the tires you use, it may or may not be worth correcting.
As far as correction options for the front, Ground Control and several others make adjustable camber plates. Realize that using these will probably transfer a bit more road noise to the cabin than factory mounts.
For the rear, I know that Bav Auto and others make adjustable trailing arm bushings.
Again, the prices of these items are not cheap, so if you're using cheap tires, it may not be worth it.
Someone else here may be aware of cheaper options, though.

The camber doesn't reduce the life of your tires as much as the toe-in gained from lowering the car. If you look at how the rear suspension travel works, you'll see that because of the angle of the trailing arm connections relative to the subframe, that as the wheel hub moves higher, it also moves inward at the leading edge. Combine that with the negative camber and you're putting an awful lot of strain on just one part of the tire. Not to mention the fact that if you're running wheels and tires that are already a tight fit, their interference is more of a possibility now since the main interference point on the rear fender is towards the rear of the opening. The only way to fix this is to use either the eccentric trailing arm bushings (okay) or modify the trailing arm mounts on the subframe, using slotted holes and eccentric bolts (best). I have not researched it thoroughly, so I do not know if the kit offered by Ireland Engineering (a copy of the Dinan modification for E28 chassis) will work on the E12. I haven't taken that part of my car apart yet. If you can adjust the mounting points for the trailing arm, you can adjust both the camber and the toe, which also allows you to get a 4-wheel alignment.

Properly lowering a car is not as simple as throwing some springs on.

Up front, though, there shouldn't be any increase in camber from lowering the car. The spindle is at a 90° angle relative to the strut housing, so simply lowering the car is not going to cause a delta in camber. To accomplish that, you have to physically move the mounting location on top, which is where camber plates come into play. There are different kinds. Another thing to consider is that you changed the placement of the spindle vertically. this is going to cause your control arms to change their angle. The inboard mounting point might actually be lower than the outboard one, which is not desirable and can lead to bump steer. The solution to that is a spacer between the bottom of the strut and the top of the steering knuckle, with the requisite longer bolts. Those are available from AKG motorsports in two thicknesses. Be aware of how much clearance you have inside your wheel, though, as that is the limiting factor.

wkohler wrote:The camber doesn't reduce the life of your tires as much as the toe-in gained from lowering the car.

Absolutely. Most people don't get it, but that's the way it works. If camber is off, the tire is still rolling. If toe is off, the tire is dragging, scrubbing, hence increased wear.

Keith wrote:Just installed a set.

What do you think about them? How much lower? Firm or harsh or rattle your fillings, or just like factory?

Factory spring rate, so highway ride is nearly the same. Because of this, however, your propensity to bottom out is significantly higher. The drop is supposed to be 1.6", so not upping the spring rate is, in my opinion, a bad choice. Handling is better due to the lower center of gravity, which is nice. Overall, I like a bit of a stiffer ride, and would prefer it to be a bit of a higher spring rate.

Thanks for all your help. I might forgo the springs and just install the Bilsteins. If there was a cookbook way to address all the issues I would be more inclined to try the springs. The disappointment of trying to correct the suspension geometry would be greater than the loss of not have the car lowered. If anyone is willing to share their mistakes of doing such a conversion , it would be greatly appreciated. Robert

I recently had these put on the car along with a new set of Bilstein Sports. I really like the set up, like most people have mentioned the spring rate is the same as stock which i think is good for every day use. (daily drive the car)

The new shocks make the ride feel much better and more sport. I did notice increased over-steer though, so Im thinking about getting sway bars to tighten things up.

Heres a pic of the results just in case anyone wants to see what the drop looks like. I'm rollin on some 14s with 205/60/14 tires ( the pictured tires are 195/70/14)

car looks great. Tell me if you address any of the suspension mods needed to correct trailing arms relocation mentioned in previous thread. Thanks Bob

Thanks for all this discussion.
It helps me with my quest. http://www.firstfives.org/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=1890

Hi Guys
From this conversation & the faq section, it seems best to use my '75 springs with Bilstein HD's at stock height? Am iI correct so far? I'm upgrading the brakes to the vented ones from an '80.
Will the '75 springs fit over the '80 shock towers?
I guess I don't want to go thru all the adjustments it takes to lower the car just to have an advantage a coupla times a year. After all, I hung real tight with the red, lowered 535 on the Malibu run this year. This will be my other DD.
Also, when you mention bottoming out, you mean while at heated speed, as opposed to crabbing outta the driveway, right?
I just replaced the rubber bushings on the sway bar on Rosallina. Next will be the water pump. She is sooo good to me!

Sorry, but, I forgot this question to SD-mk2.
Where do you get your tires? I want to keep my original 14x7 BBS's that look just like yours. BTW, good lookin' car! The tires I would prefer are size 225/60x14. This is the size that came with the wheels, and they're on the '75 now. I'm still working on it, so I'm not driven' it much, but, soon come, to quote a Jamaican saying.
Lemme guess; SD-mk2= San Diego & you're a Mike junior. How'd I do?
Thanx in advance,,,,Greg

Hey whats up Greg
You got close... SD= San Diego MK2= VW Golf Mark 2 for my VW.

As for the tires, it was kinda tough finding good tires for 14in wheels... i looked around for 225/60 and i couldnt find any. so I just went with 205/60.

Although i will say this, since this car is kinda big 225/70/14 or 205/70 might fill the wheel gap better.

I need to take a picture of my car with the new tires they are slightly smaller than the ones you see pictured in this thread... but they are wider.
still looks good, but if your car is stock height the tires wont fill the wheel gap as nice.

these are the tires i got.
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/search ... r=60&rd=14

It looks like Tire Rack still has 225/60-14s. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearc ... &x=100&y=8

205/60-14 is kind of small, almost an inch too small in diameter and the better of a hundred pounds in load rating. That will throw the speedo off about 4% and be a little light on handling and braking. Probably not a ton, but somewhat less.

Thanx Mike
While you're still here, will the springs from my '75, which may be stiffer than an '80, fit over the '80 shock towers? I'm planning on switching to the vented rotors. Also because Pierre said shocks are no longer available for a '75.
It appears the spring rate is stiffer on the '75 which is logical to me, since Petr Frac, or whatever his name is, (the engineer from Mercerdes) had it in his mind to have a more competitive car.
Thanx in advance,,,,Greg